Reply to nino 2.
but even if I were using his latest DMC4 clip (which is around 20 RTs and 50 likes, nonetheless made by "regular DMC players"), it would still prove that he is valued and noticed, and saying "people don't care at all" would still be wrong.
If you mean this one, I am pretty damn certain that it would get like 2 times or more if Kyo or Turtle posted something like this.
"But what if these 130+ people really knew about Lloyd's behavior?"
They would have a poor awareness and empathy. I am not even saying Lloyd shouldn't get the same visibility as punishment, but as a sign of not considering irrelevant his wrongdoing.
If someone does something wrong, the most moral act would be to try to correct such actions, educate him, etc. Acting like if nothing has changed in his behavior is less universable, as it makes a positive change even less likely.
Because most experienced players reaches the 100 likes every time where one might barely get to hit the 20 likes, wouldn't mean that this person "doesn't exist", or that "no one care" about his content. It will just mean that he has less "visibility" than the others.
Agree, and never said the opposite.
Whether the people behind the likes/RTs and shares of Lloyd's content were experienced DMC players or not, aware of the things he has said in the past or not, in the end of the day these people "cared" enough to bring more "visibility" to that person by dropping a Like/Comment/RT and by doing so, they make the "no one care/no one notice" statements wrong, unless we consider newer/unexperienced players and/or players not being aware of Lloyd's nonsense and/or just regular "supporters" of Lloyd's contents, being "no one".
The thing is that they aren't. And the few more experienced players who did it (excepting me), don't know shit.
How is Andy supposed to know Lloyd's nonsense, if he is relatively new on Twitter and isn't present in discord, etc.? It's not likely. And even if he knew, then I would say the same that I said in my previous answer.
"No one" wasn't literal from Kyo.
That's true. But in the end you'll just end up being less "visible". There will still be people that will "care" about your content (the remaining followers that don't necessarily have many followers). You'll still "exist". Same applies to Lloyd here. We (I personnaly), stopped sharing his stuff but it doesn't mean that "no one care" about his content anymore.
More or less what I said before. "Exist/not" was just an exaggeration. It wasn't literal from Kyo's part.
The comparison between Cosmic and Lloyd seemed to imply that because Cosmic went to AGDQ and was being featured by Capcom, that would make Cosmic automatically more "existant" than Lloyd. But as a "combo" player, Lloyd has been a lot more "existant" in my DMC journey than Cosmic has, because I don't have that much interest in the speedruning scene (even tho as a human being I do respect Cosmic more). That why I've brought the "subjectivity thing".
But yeah, in the end that example was poorly expressed.
The influence of Lloyd as player even for you was before you knew yourself all that much regarding his nonsense.
But even if you kept checking his stuff from time to time, without retweeting it or liking it, like some of his YT videos or whatever... And you got one idea from there... I still would not consider that as valuable as being respected in the community like Cosmic or others. And I don't consider that being supportive either. At most you gave him 1 view.
Invalid exaggerations (if considered literally) aside.
The "stuff shared about him" might had a negative impact on his likes/RT counts, but did that impacted him to the point that "no one would care" about his content anymore?
No. But because not everybody has a system of ethics even slightly logical and a developed empathy, not everybody speaks English, not everybody follows me or DK, not everybody is in discord, not everybody was around when this was shared (people like Andy, Jace, etc., came after the main tweets exposing Lloyd).
The point is that the more nonsense from Lloyd is shared, the fewer people will care about him and support his content. Like the example with Blossom and OCW.
The vast majority of players in the community doesn't seem to give that much importance about what one player has said and/or did in the past. They simply likes/comments/RTs based on what they find impressive and/or creative without worrying to much about who they give visibility to. And that's understandable, imagine if one has to make some deep CIA investigation about every player out there simply to not give "visibility" to one player that doesn't deserve any... That applies to both experienced and unexperienced players, but especially the unexperienced one (which are the vast majority (?)) that are just here trying to enjoy/learn from other experienced players.
Making investigations doesn't apply, because nobody is talking about being perfect or never having done a mistake.
You and I have done mistakes as well, and it's nothing anybody has to investigate. It's not even anything we actively hide. People observe patterns, and assume that, even if you or I did some mistakes, we don't do them systematically and/or we do care about correcting our mistakes.
Lloyd's case is different. He did many mistakes and we gave him a bunch of chances, especially myself, but he didn't change. Either not enough, or not in the long-term. I am not even saying he never tried. But the thing is that he keeps falling in the same pattern of passive-aggressive tweets and even mocking other players.
When we talk about sharing his crap it's a brief way to express that he will fuck up again because of such patterns; not everybody should have an impecable history. And he has proven over and over that, as long as he is around, he will fuck up.
In this point there isn't even any discussion, as I have a lot of experience with him and I know what he says in DMs, what he feels, etc. It's not even just the tweets you and others see.
As for new players... Jace is relatively new, and he left Lloyd's server once I told him what kind of person he is (and it seems Lloyd bashed me in his own server...; Jace pretty much thanked me for opening his eyes and making him understand Lloyd's manipulation, etc.).
Even if you were a new player, being Lloyd someone who insults, mocks others' content, etc., would you ask him for advice?, would you support him as if that was irrelevant? Let alone knowing that there are other players that can help you.
I don't think any decent human being would (assuming people and/or yourself already tried to help him to improve, and it was clear that it's not going to happen).
"Most people don’t know the context of who he is, I’d still say they don’t actually give a shit, they’re retweeting and care about the flashy combo, not the person" - Millz
...
It seems that the combinations of all of these cases make it unlikely that Lloyd will gain less visibility (especially if he keeps playing and sharing). So even if people knew that Lloyd has been Hitler's personal assistant, in the long run, it won't make that much difference. (I think, all of this are pure hypotheses..)
After the first comma Millz is wrong.
It's evident that the stuff that has been already shared had an impact on the people who read it. Lloyd lost followers, likes and RTs just from that, which isn't even the worst he has done.
It's basically empirically proven.
Of course, if every 100 followers, only 50 get to read it, and from them only 30 understand English, and from these 30 only 25 are decent human beings with empathy... Then the impact gets mitigated. But that doesn't make it irrelevant.
Also the only reason why it's not so bad is because DK, Millz and I haven't insisted so much (also Millz has done some tweets mocking Lloyd that can actually play against us, making Lloyd look like bullied).
"That's not about Lloyd's nonsense in itself; I would have provided the same argument even if it was "Cosmic against" another "nice" player.
- He got that many likes, comments, retweets (whatever the reason might be, that's not the point) therefore "no one care" is wrong.
- Here we are talking about him (for whatever reason) therefore "no one notice" is wrong."
If I have the possibilty to provide the exact same arguments even if it wasn't specificaly about Lloyd, then it means that it isn't about Lloyd's nonsense either.
But that is the point. It's not whatever reason, but the fact that 135 of these people don't know what I know.
Lloyd gets fewer RTs and likes on average because of the shared stuff. While the attention towards someone like Cosmic is boosted precisely because he isn't like Lloyd. And he gets more likes and RTs (not than Lloyd, but compared to his numbers if he behaved like Lloyd).
It's not about Lloyd getting one day 0 RTs and 0 likes. Of course we agree on this. That's unlikely, but the impact is already significant.
This is why I said that you can't really separate visibility from his nonsense (as long as at least someone bothers to expose it and/or people are naturally attentive/aware).
Because not only I think that it is wrong, but I also find it to be quite disrespectful against players that get less like/RTs and shares than Lloyd. That's my point.
And I think this is the core of the misunderstanding.
New players with 50 followers and just 20 likes should get their numbers relativized according to their context. And assuming they are nice (or at least don't show bad behavior).
Kyo wasn't disrespecting or being inconsiderate with them. I would rather say it was just implicit (the relativization). And also such players get quickly support from us (unlike Lloyd), and grow, as long as they keep working, improving, sharing content, etc.
Because Cosmic did went to AGDQ and was being featured by Capcom doesn't automatically means that you, who never went to AGDQ, who isn't being featured by Capcom are "unexistant". Trying to bring someone "up", while "dragging 95% of the community down" isn't the appropriate way to show how Lloyd's statement was wrong.
I don't think Kyo meant it that way either. It was more in the sense: he even got recognized in such additional ways.
Obviously we agree that going to AGDQ and being featured by Capcom isn't a requisite to be recognized in a relevant way. I don't even consider it the ultimate goal or recognition.
It's like trying to demonstrate how "bad" of a player Lloyd is simply because he plays Turboless without taking into account bunch of other talented Turboless players like Edwin, that makes things that few "turbo players" are able to do even in 0.6.
This was mainly that comparison between Cosmic and Lloyd, that made me reply in the first place. (Along with the "no one care/notice" exaggeration)
This is why I called out Valy one time for mocking Lloyd because of non-turbo. And for the same reason I told Millz that it would be better to avoid posting such type of tweets, even if he didn't mean them seriously and was just venting.
Obviously we agree on this as well.
If you mean this one, I am pretty damn certain that it would get like 2 times or more if Kyo or Turtle posted something like this.
"But what if these 130+ people really knew about Lloyd's behavior?"
They would have a poor awareness and empathy. I am not even saying Lloyd shouldn't get the same visibility as punishment, but as a sign of not considering irrelevant his wrongdoing.
If someone does something wrong, the most moral act would be to try to correct such actions, educate him, etc. Acting like if nothing has changed in his behavior is less universable, as it makes a positive change even less likely.
Because most experienced players reaches the 100 likes every time where one might barely get to hit the 20 likes, wouldn't mean that this person "doesn't exist", or that "no one care" about his content. It will just mean that he has less "visibility" than the others.
Agree, and never said the opposite.
Whether the people behind the likes/RTs and shares of Lloyd's content were experienced DMC players or not, aware of the things he has said in the past or not, in the end of the day these people "cared" enough to bring more "visibility" to that person by dropping a Like/Comment/RT and by doing so, they make the "no one care/no one notice" statements wrong, unless we consider newer/unexperienced players and/or players not being aware of Lloyd's nonsense and/or just regular "supporters" of Lloyd's contents, being "no one".
The thing is that they aren't. And the few more experienced players who did it (excepting me), don't know shit.
How is Andy supposed to know Lloyd's nonsense, if he is relatively new on Twitter and isn't present in discord, etc.? It's not likely. And even if he knew, then I would say the same that I said in my previous answer.
"No one" wasn't literal from Kyo.
That's true. But in the end you'll just end up being less "visible". There will still be people that will "care" about your content (the remaining followers that don't necessarily have many followers). You'll still "exist". Same applies to Lloyd here. We (I personnaly), stopped sharing his stuff but it doesn't mean that "no one care" about his content anymore.
More or less what I said before. "Exist/not" was just an exaggeration. It wasn't literal from Kyo's part.
The comparison between Cosmic and Lloyd seemed to imply that because Cosmic went to AGDQ and was being featured by Capcom, that would make Cosmic automatically more "existant" than Lloyd. But as a "combo" player, Lloyd has been a lot more "existant" in my DMC journey than Cosmic has, because I don't have that much interest in the speedruning scene (even tho as a human being I do respect Cosmic more). That why I've brought the "subjectivity thing".
But yeah, in the end that example was poorly expressed.
The influence of Lloyd as player even for you was before you knew yourself all that much regarding his nonsense.
But even if you kept checking his stuff from time to time, without retweeting it or liking it, like some of his YT videos or whatever... And you got one idea from there... I still would not consider that as valuable as being respected in the community like Cosmic or others. And I don't consider that being supportive either. At most you gave him 1 view.
Invalid exaggerations (if considered literally) aside.
The "stuff shared about him" might had a negative impact on his likes/RT counts, but did that impacted him to the point that "no one would care" about his content anymore?
No. But because not everybody has a system of ethics even slightly logical and a developed empathy, not everybody speaks English, not everybody follows me or DK, not everybody is in discord, not everybody was around when this was shared (people like Andy, Jace, etc., came after the main tweets exposing Lloyd).
The point is that the more nonsense from Lloyd is shared, the fewer people will care about him and support his content. Like the example with Blossom and OCW.
The vast majority of players in the community doesn't seem to give that much importance about what one player has said and/or did in the past. They simply likes/comments/RTs based on what they find impressive and/or creative without worrying to much about who they give visibility to. And that's understandable, imagine if one has to make some deep CIA investigation about every player out there simply to not give "visibility" to one player that doesn't deserve any... That applies to both experienced and unexperienced players, but especially the unexperienced one (which are the vast majority (?)) that are just here trying to enjoy/learn from other experienced players.
Making investigations doesn't apply, because nobody is talking about being perfect or never having done a mistake.
You and I have done mistakes as well, and it's nothing anybody has to investigate. It's not even anything we actively hide. People observe patterns, and assume that, even if you or I did some mistakes, we don't do them systematically and/or we do care about correcting our mistakes.
Lloyd's case is different. He did many mistakes and we gave him a bunch of chances, especially myself, but he didn't change. Either not enough, or not in the long-term. I am not even saying he never tried. But the thing is that he keeps falling in the same pattern of passive-aggressive tweets and even mocking other players.
When we talk about sharing his crap it's a brief way to express that he will fuck up again because of such patterns; not everybody should have an impecable history. And he has proven over and over that, as long as he is around, he will fuck up.
In this point there isn't even any discussion, as I have a lot of experience with him and I know what he says in DMs, what he feels, etc. It's not even just the tweets you and others see.
As for new players... Jace is relatively new, and he left Lloyd's server once I told him what kind of person he is (and it seems Lloyd bashed me in his own server...; Jace pretty much thanked me for opening his eyes and making him understand Lloyd's manipulation, etc.).
Even if you were a new player, being Lloyd someone who insults, mocks others' content, etc., would you ask him for advice?, would you support him as if that was irrelevant? Let alone knowing that there are other players that can help you.
I don't think any decent human being would (assuming people and/or yourself already tried to help him to improve, and it was clear that it's not going to happen).
"Most people don’t know the context of who he is, I’d still say they don’t actually give a shit, they’re retweeting and care about the flashy combo, not the person" - Millz
...
It seems that the combinations of all of these cases make it unlikely that Lloyd will gain less visibility (especially if he keeps playing and sharing). So even if people knew that Lloyd has been Hitler's personal assistant, in the long run, it won't make that much difference. (I think, all of this are pure hypotheses..)
After the first comma Millz is wrong.
It's evident that the stuff that has been already shared had an impact on the people who read it. Lloyd lost followers, likes and RTs just from that, which isn't even the worst he has done.
It's basically empirically proven.
Of course, if every 100 followers, only 50 get to read it, and from them only 30 understand English, and from these 30 only 25 are decent human beings with empathy... Then the impact gets mitigated. But that doesn't make it irrelevant.
Also the only reason why it's not so bad is because DK, Millz and I haven't insisted so much (also Millz has done some tweets mocking Lloyd that can actually play against us, making Lloyd look like bullied).
"That's not about Lloyd's nonsense in itself; I would have provided the same argument even if it was "Cosmic against" another "nice" player.
- He got that many likes, comments, retweets (whatever the reason might be, that's not the point) therefore "no one care" is wrong.
- Here we are talking about him (for whatever reason) therefore "no one notice" is wrong."
If I have the possibilty to provide the exact same arguments even if it wasn't specificaly about Lloyd, then it means that it isn't about Lloyd's nonsense either.
But that is the point. It's not whatever reason, but the fact that 135 of these people don't know what I know.
Lloyd gets fewer RTs and likes on average because of the shared stuff. While the attention towards someone like Cosmic is boosted precisely because he isn't like Lloyd. And he gets more likes and RTs (not than Lloyd, but compared to his numbers if he behaved like Lloyd).
It's not about Lloyd getting one day 0 RTs and 0 likes. Of course we agree on this. That's unlikely, but the impact is already significant.
This is why I said that you can't really separate visibility from his nonsense (as long as at least someone bothers to expose it and/or people are naturally attentive/aware).
Because not only I think that it is wrong, but I also find it to be quite disrespectful against players that get less like/RTs and shares than Lloyd. That's my point.
And I think this is the core of the misunderstanding.
New players with 50 followers and just 20 likes should get their numbers relativized according to their context. And assuming they are nice (or at least don't show bad behavior).
Kyo wasn't disrespecting or being inconsiderate with them. I would rather say it was just implicit (the relativization). And also such players get quickly support from us (unlike Lloyd), and grow, as long as they keep working, improving, sharing content, etc.
Because Cosmic did went to AGDQ and was being featured by Capcom doesn't automatically means that you, who never went to AGDQ, who isn't being featured by Capcom are "unexistant". Trying to bring someone "up", while "dragging 95% of the community down" isn't the appropriate way to show how Lloyd's statement was wrong.
I don't think Kyo meant it that way either. It was more in the sense: he even got recognized in such additional ways.
Obviously we agree that going to AGDQ and being featured by Capcom isn't a requisite to be recognized in a relevant way. I don't even consider it the ultimate goal or recognition.
It's like trying to demonstrate how "bad" of a player Lloyd is simply because he plays Turboless without taking into account bunch of other talented Turboless players like Edwin, that makes things that few "turbo players" are able to do even in 0.6.
This was mainly that comparison between Cosmic and Lloyd, that made me reply in the first place. (Along with the "no one care/notice" exaggeration)
This is why I called out Valy one time for mocking Lloyd because of non-turbo. And for the same reason I told Millz that it would be better to avoid posting such type of tweets, even if he didn't mean them seriously and was just venting.
Obviously we agree on this as well.
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